106 comments

[–] emperorbma -2 points

Sargon of Akkad's take on (Tory) conservatives... they have no direction. They're just "against." As Aaron Tippin sang: "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything."

Unfortunately, the alternative that tends to edge into this vacuum is the stupid socialist garbage which is intentionally evil and promotes the enslavement of mankind to the will of middle management. Even "capitalism" itself is one of their Trojan Horse terms meant to tar and feather the free market with a slander that it's about making people "cattle" rather than about individuals and families trading to improve their standing in the economy.

[–] kodiakus 0 points

...nah

[–] emperorbma 0 points

You’re delusional if you think socialism is good. Read Gulag Archipelago. By the way your socialist overlords will reward all you SJWs with death first during the normalization that Yuri Bezmenov warned about.

[–] kodiakus 0 points

I don't think I will.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Persistence in delusions is insanity. Enjoy yourself until the jackboots come.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

They're here right now!

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Sarcasm won't change the fact that if the left wing takes power you'll be on the chopping block. The Revolution always eats its own.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

It's not sarcasm.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Summarizing Yuri Bezmenov, since you refuse to learn... the Soviet takeover strategy: (which is now being implemented by the Chinese backed Clintons, Bushes and Bidens...)

Demoralization. For this step in the process, 15 – 20 years are needed. That is the amount of time required to educate a generation. Helping along the way are media and teachers who have become sympathetic (consciously or unconsciously) to the theoretical causes of the subverting nation. Bezmenov claims that the USSR was surprised at how easy this phase was in the US.
Destabilization. Following the earlier phase, this is a two to five year period to change the target country’s foreign relations, defense, and economy.
Crisis. Perhaps six weeks of chaos as a climatic turning point.
Normalization. This stage changes the appreciation of what the status quo looks like. Bezmenov’s description of this phase also includes military take over.

We currently are in this protracted Crisis since they seem to have made COVID their basis for the "Great Reset" and their coup against the electoral process. But when the "Powers that Be" (read: the Socialist leaders backed by the Central banks) normalize this madness you rioters have helped created, you radicals are going to be the first target. Hell, you'll be the target even if the conservatives take power but at least conservatives will try to be merciful. (It's really their weakness if you ask me... you subversives are a threat to freedom no matter what because you're brainwashed on stupid ideologies that scapegoat white people and rich people as your "villains.")

That whole "I don't think I will" bullshit you just pulled is keeping you from realizing that your paymasters have warrants for your execution. Enjoy it while it lasts because your "summer of love" will come crashing down one day...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Let go, m8. You're not in control, here.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Nice projection, dude. I never said I was in control of anything. If I were, you'd still be singing "Orange Man Bad" in CHAZ.

Frankly, I don't need to be. Your own false god, these globalist elites, will be doing that.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

You just keep... Talking. I said I wasn't interested in your book so you try to make me anyway. You know nothing about what I believe but you're happy to tell me who my gods are. You're quite authoritarian in your speech patterns, always taking a position of authority built from virtue signaling towards rationalism and true understanding.

If you were capable of talking to a communist without telling them what they believe, you might learn something about your fellow man.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

If I sound "authoritarian" it's because I've found it's the only way to get you tyrants to leave us alone. When we're nice and libertarian you use your mind warping propaganda to usurp our institutions from within and warp our societies with your perverse economic theory. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is code for "rob the rich" and "give everything to the indigent," or more precisely... the indolent.

You are the ones pushing a system of tyrannical middle management economics upon the world as if we can't be trusted to manage our own property without Karl Marx's bullshit thesis. You are the ones pushing this agenda against my free market against my freedom to own my own means of production without your oversight. And it's high time we defend that free market from your intrusions.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

You sure do know an awful lot, mister.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Do you mean to imply I'm wrong because I've actually read the history of what your fellow ideologues have done?

Things like the Holodomor in Russia? Mao's starvation and book burning campaign? Khrushchev' corn campaign? All the confiscated land, stolen property, murdered peasants? All of your Pravda propaganda used to destabilize Western civilization?

What am I missing here? You want me to claim you're the good guys when it's been socialists doing those things?

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Bad history. Junk in, junk out! You live in the most heavily indoctrinated population on the planet, kid.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Oh, so it's the old revisionist historian claiming their alternate history is reality. Tell you what. How about you talk to all the victims of communism that have escaped your bloody hell holes and told their stories.

See, I have a basic problem here. I can't reason with someone who is denying reality. You have a nice day, guy...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

You have far too small a sample size, and far too much of an emotional attachment to it, to understand reality or anyone's place in it.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

There would never be a large enough sample size to satisfy you socialists. Killing off the entire planet would still be answered with "socialism was never really tried." It's not enough that you're envious murderers but you're also calumnious liars who willfully slander anyone who doesn't believe your pie in the sky baloney. From my perspective, you are an existential threat. Your entire goal is the destruction of my civilization to suit your mythos.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

You may as well replace socialists with demons in that diatribe. You are so insistent at speaking for me and telling me what I believe because you've been indoctrinated into a cult that has prepared you with The One True Knowledge, or rather just a set of scripts to peg through holes.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

You may as well replace socialists with demons in that diatribe.

My reaction is very simple. You refuse to acknowledge the facts of history and poison the well to keep anyone else from acknowledging that history as well. There's no reasoning with that kind of perspective. You've simply declared that you're right and everyone else is wrong... then you project this as though I'm the one doing that.

It quacks and floats on the water? But how dare I call it a duck...

Your issue is that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that socialism can be and often is very pernicious. You seem to think "capitalism lies" is a logical rebuttal to the testimonies of millions of victims of those wearing the mantle of your preferred economic system. What compounds this is that you double down on your bias and refuse to address any such criticisms to support that delusion which assumes your economic system is impeccable.

That's not going to make me think you're not a lunatic who, if given power, would rob me and my family blind and murder me to promote the delusion that everyone can get free stuff without work. Why should I think otherwise? The entire program has been a game of "blame the white people" and "blame capitalism" so we can create a false justification for our envy. The entire problem with the means of production is someone has to do the fucking work. And you're outsourcing that to everyone whom your economic system deigns OK to crush and violate. Explain to me why this is not the case.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Things aren't facts just because you say they are. You're lost in fantasy and arguing emotionally. You're not an authority, though.

[–] emperorbma 2 points

You've made your entire argument about ignoring the volumnious citations of documented evidence which demonstrate the harmful track record of socialism. What else could be left except preparing for the probable necessity of self defense against an aggressor who won't accept reason should you ever attain the power you so desire?

Don't mistake my knowledge of your existential threat for an emotional reaction. It's more like "if you try to steal my property, you're a thief and I WILL defend myself."

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Lol, argument...

You don't need me as a prop in your fantasies of violence. Do carry on.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

If you actually wanted to reason, you wouldn't have made it a point to undermine the basis of reasoning from evidence by handwaving it away as capitalist pig dog lies like you did when you said "Bad history. Junk in, junk out!"... As I said, you cannot reason with someone who is unwilling to engage with evidence.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Would you actually read any books I cite?

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Yes. However, as our forum patron pointed out, you might have reasonably objected to my original citation due to its size rather than its content. To which I stated "I'd accept the Cliff's Notes." Therefore, I would prefer something succinct if possible.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Our host speaks the truth about Socialism in their comments. It's a system, dependent on the quality of its leadership, which is wonderfully adept at controlling Capitalism as a tool in order to reach defined goals. Horror stories do not engage with reality.

Since you want me to make a summation of literally dozens and dozens of books, have some quotes instead:

​

  • "Recent evidence has indicated that part of the cause of the famine was an exceptionally low harvest in 1932, much lower than incorrect Soviet methods of calculation had suggested. The documents included here or published elsewhere do not yet support the claim that the famine was deliberately produced by confiscating the harvest, or that it was directed especially against the peasants of the Ukraine."

Koenker and Bachman, Eds. Revelations from the Russian Archives. Washington: Library of Congress, 1997, p. 401

  • "In view of the importance of grain stocks to understanding the famine, we have searched Russian archives for evidence of Soviet planned and actual grain stocks in the early 1930s. Our main sources were the Politburo protocols, including the (“special files,” the highest secrecy level), and the papers of the agricultural collections committee Komzag, of the committee on commodity funds, and of Sovnarkom. The Sovnarkom records include telegrams and correspondence of Kuibyshev, who was head of Gosplan, head of Komzag and the committee on reserves, and one of the deputy chairs of Komzag at that time.

We have not obtained access to the Politburo working papers in the Presidential Archive, to the files of the committee on reserves or to the relevant files in military archives. But we have found enough information to be confident that this very a high figure for grain stocks is wrong and that Stalin did not have under his control huge amounts of grain, which could easily have been used to eliminate the famine."

Stalin, Grain Stocks and the Famine of 1932-1933 by R. W. Davies, M. B. Tauger, S.G. Wheatcroft.Slavic Review, Volume 54, Issue 3 (Autumn, 1995), pp. 642-657.

  • The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.

Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN

From the Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.

  • It is a matter of some significance that Cardinal Innitzer’s allegations of famine-genocide were widely promoted throughout the 1930s, not only by Hitler’s chief propagandist Goebbels, but also by American Fascists as well.

It will be recalled that Hearst kicked off his famine campaign with a radio broadcast based mainly on material from Cardinal Innitzer’s “aid committee.” In Organized Anti-Semitism in America, the 1941 book exposing Nazi groups and activities in the pre-war United States, Donald Strong notes that American fascist leader Father Coughlin used Nazi propaganda material extensively. This included Nazi charges of “atrocities by Jew Communists” and verbatim portions of a Goebbels speech referring to Innitzer’s “appeal of July 1934, that millions of people were dying of hunger throughout the Soviet Union.”

Tottle, Douglas. Fraud, Famine, and Fascism. Toronto: Progress Books,1987, p. 49-51

  • QUESTION: Is it true that during 1932-33 several million people were allowed to starve to death in the Ukraine and North Caucasus because they were politically hostile to the Soviets?

ANSWER: Not true. I visited several places in those regions during that period. There was a serious grain shortage in the 1932 harvest due chiefly to inefficiencies of the organizational period of the new large-scale mechanized farming among peasants unaccustomed to machines. To this was added sabotage by dispossessed kulaks, the leaving of the farms by 11 million workers who went to new industries, the cumulative effect of the world crisis in depressing the value of Soviet farm exports, and a drought in five basic grain regions in 1931.

The harvest of 1932 was better than that of 1931 but was not all gathered; on account of overoptimistic promises from rural districts, Moscow discovered the actual situation only in December when a considerable amount of grain was under snow.

Strong, Anna Louise. Searching Out the Soviets. New Republic: August 7, 1935, p. 356

[–] UkraineWithoutTheBot 1 points

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'

[Merriam-Webster] [BBC Styleguide] [Reuters Styleguide]

^(Beep boop I’m a bot)

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Oh no, the summary is too big.

  • "The conquest of bread was achieved that summer, a victory snatched from a great disaster. The 1933 harvest surpassed that of 1930, which till then had held the record. This time, the new record was made not by a burst of half-organized enthusiasm, but by growing efficiency and permanent organization … This nationwide cooperation beat the 1934 drought, securing a total crop for the USSR equal to the all-time high of 1933."

Strong, Anna Louise. The Stalin Era. New York: Mainstream, 1956, p. 44-45

  • in 1920 when the NEP was implemented and the Soviet Union moved from War-Communism, to a temporary stage where a free market existed, the much feared consequences of the market became evident. Despite the previous land reform nearly 3 million peasants, were quickly once again without land, because the kulaks had driven them bankrupt and then bought their land cheaply. This resulted in 10 or 11 percent of the population (kulaks) owning so much land and also horses and machinery compared to the rest of the peasant population that they produced 56 percent of the marketed food. The kulaks largely would decide if the towns would get food or not. Kulak speculation on the food market caused a shortage already in 1927 when the marketed share of grain was only one third of the pre-war years although production had exceeded pre-war figures. This ineffectiveness was what initiated the idea of collectivization, with Lenin writing down the basic idea before his death and Stalin putting down the plans and implementing it. Among the many actions of the collectivization program was the confiscation of farm land and the machinery and livestock that was on it (private property, NOT personal property). However there were some problems;

“Collectivization was not an orderly process following bureaucratic rules. It consisted of actions by the poor peasants, encouraged by the Party. The poor peasants were eager to expropriate the “kulaks,” but less eager to organize a cooperative economy. By 1930 the Party and already sent out cadres to stem and correct excesses… After having exercised restraint in 1930, the Party put on a drive again in 1932. As a result, in that year the kulak economy ceased to produce, and the new collective economy did not yet produce fully.”

Blumenfeld, Hans. Life Begins at 65. Montreal, Canada: Harvest House, c1987, p. 152

  • “During the 1932 harvest season Soviet agriculture experienced a crisis. Natural disasters, especially plant diseases spread and intensified by wet weather in mid-1932, drastically reduced crop yields. OGPU reports, anecdotal as they are, indicate widespread peasant opposition to the kolkhoz system. These documents contain numerous reports of kolkhozniki, faced with starvation, mismanagement and abuse by kolkhoz officials and others, and desperate conditions: dying horses, idle tractors, infested crops, and incitement by itinerant people. Peasants’ responses varied: some applied to withdraw from their farms, some left for paid work outside, some worked sloppily, intentionally leaving grain on the fields while harvesting to glean later for themselves.”

Tauger, Mark. “Soviet Peasants and Collectivization, 1930-39: Resistance and Adaptation.” In Rural Adaptation in Russia by Stephen Wegren, Routledge, New York, NY, 2005, Chapter 3, p. 81.

  • Some of the Kulaks, angered and resentful, rather than integrate into society as an average worker (who frankly lived in conditions 10x better than under Tsarist times), decided to take action.

They burnt crops and slaughtered livestock, those with machinery broke it if they could. In addition to their vandalism and arson they murdered government officials and peasants siding with them, there are even some (unconfirmed) accounts of them poisoning water supplies.

“Almost all the collective farms established in 1931 and 1932 were shockingly mismanaged. What else could be expected when every village in Russia had been the scene of bitter internal strife, when animals had been slaughtered or allowed to die through incompetence, and grain had been buried, and barns and houses burned? It has been estimated that livestock dropped by 50% during those tragic years and there were large areas, as I saw with my own eyes in the North Caucasus in 1933, where miles of weeds and desolation replaced the former grainfields…”

Duranty, Walter. Stalin & Co. New York: W. Sloane Associates, 1949, p. 77[10]

  • During the thirties, the far-right, linked with the Hitlerites, had already fully exploited the propaganda theme of `deliberately provoked famine to exterminate the Ukrainian people’. But after the Second World War, this propaganda was `adjusted’ with the main goal of covering up the barbaric crimes committed by German and Ukrainian Nazis, to protect fascism and to mobilise Western forces against Communism.”

Martens, Ludo. Another View of Stalin. Antwerp, Belgium: EPO, Lange Pastoorstraat 25-27 2600, p. 113 (Pg 96 on the internet pdf) [11]

  • “This destruction of the productive forces had, of course, disastrous consequences: in 1932, there was a great famine, caused in part by the sabotage and destruction done by the kulaks. But anti-Communists blame Stalin and the `forced collectivization’ for the deaths caused by the criminal actions of the kulaks.”

Martens, Ludo. Another View of Stalin. Antwerp, Belgium: EPO, Lange Pastoorstraat 25-27 2600, p. 79 [p. 66 on the pdf]

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Here are some links to other media that may strike your curiosity:

  • Mark Tauger reviews The Years of Hunger by Davies and Wheatcroft

https://eh.net/book_reviews/the-years-of-hunger-soviet-agriculture-1931-1933/

  • Stop spreading Nazi propaganda: on Holodomor

https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/

  • The Holodomor Hoax: Joseph Stalin’s crime that never took place

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/08/10/the-holodomor-hoax-joseph-stalins-crime-that-never-took-place/

  • Real Stalin series: famine of 1932

https://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/famine-of-1932/

  • In search of a Soviet Holocaust: A 55 year old famine feeds the Right

https://msuweb.montclair.edu/\~furrg/vv.html

  • The Ukrainian famine: only evidence can disclose the truth

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/31/the-ukrainian-famine-only-evidence-can-disclose-the-truth/

  • The “Holodomor” and the film “Bitter Harvest” are Fascist lies

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/03/the-holodomor-and-the-film-bitter-harvest-are-fascist-lies/

  • Holodomor Hoax: the anatomy of a lie invented by West’s propaganda machine

https://sputniknews.com/politics/201510191028730561-holodomor-hoax-invented-hitler-west

  • The famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine the eyes of historians, the language of documents

http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Publicat/Fam-Pyrig-1932.php

  • How many people did Joseph Stalin really kill?

https://anti-imperialism.org/2016/02/16/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-really-kill/

  • Evidence that Stalin was unaware of conditions in the Ukraine and tried to relieve the situation when he was informed

http://www.stalinsociety.org/2015/10/03/fighting-the-holodomor-myth-archival-evidence-that-stalin-was-unaware-of-conditions-in-the-ukraine-and-tried-to-relieve-the-situation-when-he-was-informed/

YouTube videos

  • Why the Holodomor narrative is wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUEi7v2TMpQ

  • Holodomor series - part 1 - fraudulent photos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzXFXdOz_8Q

  • Food shortages and problems in the USSR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUO7_SiJCpw

  • Did Stalin continue to export grain as Ukraine starved?

https://youtu.be/SMBJ_nQ4sTA

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Excellent, now that you've actually addressed one of my points of contention and provided citations to work with I can refine my response from the assumptions I had to make before. Thank you for your effort in sharing that.

Now, your sources seem to conclude that the alleged propaganda of the West is misrepresenting the situation and that the Holodomor is actually more of an accident coupled with ineptitude rather than willful malice. OK, that is fine with me. I don't have any commitment to the idea that Communists were sitting behind closed doors going "mwahahaha, let's sacrifice millions." But, your information does not really remove my point of criticism.

Allow me to build my contention off what you've acknowledged here. There was, in fact, a famine and people were not able to gain food resources in part because of socialist policies. Ineptly managed or not, the socialist system itself contributed to the problem. Most especially by preventing alternative actions that may have mitigated the disaster. What sort of alternative actions? Consider that 'corn under the snow.' Do you really think that would happen in a free market system? Of course not. Some enterprising citizen would put in the back work and dig up the friggin corn to sell it to their neighbors for a marginal profit. The Communists, however, would have punished that and taxed it to extinction because of their regulated and controlled system. Even so, such a behavior would've saved people from dying were it implemented. On those grounds, I can make the contention that socialism is harmful to the citizenry simply on the basis of its managed economy alone. Indeed, my friend's Russian professor made very clear to him that the "boots on the ground" situation was indeed that stark.

And since you made the case that it's mismanagement and ineptitude, I think it's also worth noting that this situation isn't unique. Mao's cultural revolution also exhibited this feature. As did many other cases of socialist implementation. Why should such a perfect system introduce such flaws? Because, it is my perspective, it is a flaw inherent in socialism itself. It fails to take into account a very important element of the universe. The element of human behavior and choice. It simply treats an economy like a machine that can be tuned and fixed. The failure to accommodate human choices and freedom is a failure that results in dehumanization and subjugation of the will to the leaders of the system. That isn't an accidental side-effect but its natural rule. The only real contention you can add against this is that this may not be intentional but a side-effect of the ignorance of the leaders when to loosen the control levers.

But that really sums up the thrust of my criticism against socialism in general. The very core paradigm seems to involve the supposition that the individual is not permitted to act for himself but may only work with respect to the collective. That is inherently false. Self-interest is a valid necessity that contributes to man's ability to survive. In socialism, those principles are taken out of the hands of men and given to the system. You do not own the means of production. The state does or society does. You are thus perpetually a slave to society as, your own philosophy alleges, the workers in capitalism are slaves to the capitalist. But Marx was incorrect. In capitalism, the workers do have freedom. They have the choice to continue to cooperate with the owner or not. They may reject a corrupt boss and choose a better one. At least as long as the system operates as it's intended. When we reach a situation where we have a few large monopolies that's going to generate another problem which I'll address later...

With socialism, the worker's actions are always taxed and managed. Always owing society, never receiving any benefit except the common dole. There's no incentive to work well. And this takes away a vital freedom of man to make decisions for themselves and makes them slaves of the legislators' will. In fact, I'm actually referencing Frederic Bastiat's The Law here. Man must be free to be man, not a slave to some system of control devised by bureaucratic fiat. There's instances when this sort of regulated system can be useful, but making it the general paradigm of society undermines respect to the individual's own freedoms.

Workers in capitalism in its proper sense are technically leasing their own time to someone else. And that's something your system if implemented makes infeasible. As was demonstrated above, your managers told the workers not to harvest and so they just sat there and didn't harvest. There was no incentive to do so because they wouldn't earn any money doing so. The entire system of capitalism would have addressed the problem by having workers acting on their own intiaitive and selling food to their neighbors regardless of the economists in Moscow.

Furthermore, the other point in in any socialist's argument always seems to involve the fact that capitalism is nearly always being usurped by the Crony elite class. This, however, is a slanted position that is actually a sort of confirmation bias against Captialism. I would fully concede to you that "Crony Captialism" as RD called it is evil. But, as I said to him, I think it's actually part of the same poisonous tree that I see underneath the principles of socialism. As stated above, monopoly is a problem for a free market. It disincentivizes the benefits of the system by removing competition. It's ultimately this "control system" which infringes on man's freedom of conscience and decision that I find problematic. I don't want you telling me what to think or what to do for my own life. I am an intelligent person and can make those decisions myself. The real unfortunate fact is that some degree of management of decisions may sometimes be necessary where ignorance actually prevails. But a real question is how much and why we need that regulation. Diversity of thought is not evil, it's simply an effect of having different minds.

Part of the inequality problem, however, is that not all people have equal aptitudes. Some excel more than others and reap an economic benefit because of that. Which creates an uneven Pareto distribution that generates my aforementioned "greed and envy cycle" that ultimately leads to a collapse into either corrupt Crony Capitalism or socialism. Neither of these stopgaps fix the issue but create their own set of problems that undermine human liberty. I'll even agree with you if you think Bill Gates is an existential threat, but I won't agree that the mechanism that unwittingly allowed him to exist, because he was able to abuse something most people at worst try to use for their survival responsibly, is necessarily the problem.

Anyway, hopefully my more precise criticism will help you to tune your responses to my objections. What I'm objecting to is not exactly just socialism per se but rather the whole vain presumption that economic calculation can effectively or correctly be done by the centralized system. It's trying to manage an infinite problem with a finite mind. And I oppose many kinds of government on that same principle.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Jesus, man. What a diatribe. Unsourced, unsubstantiated, an endless list of conservative memes. Once again, built on a mountain of assumptions. You spend more time speaking for me than to me. And you say I'm the maniacal authoritarian... You can't even step down from your little box.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Oh gee. Spare me the drama. I put in the effort to read your citations. The least you can do is address my observations about them fairly without an ad hominem claiming I'm just spewing nonsense. The definition of a "diatribe" is a discussion. Is that not what we're doing? Why should that be considered anomalous?

If you feel that I made a mistake in representing your positions then by all means, address those mistaken assumptions. Where have I misrepresented you? Then I'll either have to correct my mistake or present a counterargument that demonstrates an inconsistency in your rebuttal. Did I not do the same thing when I was presented with your citations? I clearly admitted what I felt reasonable from your citations. Did you expect me to just think "oh noes... my opinions be stupid... I must flleeeeeeee..." Really?

What did you expect me to do? Surrender and concede the entire discussion to you just because you cited some things? Surely you understand how a debate works. Just spin the chessboard around and understand that it's not my job to agree with your claims or to defend your positions either.

I honestly don't agree with socialism and I have no good reasons to do so. The best you can hope here is that you might convince me that socialism isn't as bad as I thought. My job as your debate opponent is to rebut your claims, not to mollycoddle or succumb to them as though you are an infallible arbiter of truth. I mean, I cited things before and you didn't agree with me... Have I somehow compelled you to agree? Obviously not because you clearly remain opposed to e

And to wit, I did concede a fair bit to you in the previous response. Did you notice that I admitted captialism is not all perfect and that it can become corrupt? Frankly, that was a "freebie" because I was feeling charitable. Sure, I happened to compare it to socialism, but a decent debater would recognize that as a concession to the argument even if it isn't a surrender. But as they say "you give an inch, they take a mile." That's sort of why it's easier just to assume that you won't be charitable and move on.

Now, on the topic of conservatives... what's wrong with people having "conservative" opinions? Conservative merely means "preserving historical and traditional views." Everybody is not compelled to agree with you just because you're a socialist. Hell, I don't even agree with conservative opinions all the time. Calling me a conservative is not even really accurate. I don't identify as one and never have. In fact, my actual position used to be libertarian but now it's become more fluid because I've seen it has some things I don't agree with either. Regardless, my perspective tends to revolve mainly around libertarian and classical free market ideas. Not sure why that matters, though. The entire point here is that you are pigeonholing me and that's ignorant.

What I have always maintained is that using reasonable discussion is preferable to the alternative of emotional or vituperative reactions. If I hadn't, you saw the alternative since I led with it.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

There's another. You're entirely consumed by emotion. You cannot control yourself or accurately asses your surroundings. It makes you easy to control.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

You know what's funny. You think you're actually educating me about the effect of emotional "noise" on logic. I hobnob with a psychologist daily. I know damn well what emotions can do.

So what if I told you that I specifically chose not to reign in my emotions? What do you think I've managed to demonstrate about you, Mr. GoadsALot?

[–] kodiakus 1 points

You don't know what I think I'm actually doing here, but you're always so eager to tell me. You can't control yourself so you try to control others by being able to describe them. It's a pretty weak manifestation of the authoritarian personality.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Yet here you are telling me what I think. I specifically stated that my ethos is libertarian. I wasn't lying. Your opinions are your own. I think that a little time looking in a mirror might help you realize something about your own behavior, though...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

If I could summarize the entirety of your writings here, it would be one word. Projection.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Who is the one who said: "It makes you easy to control?"

I specifically said that "I never said I was in control of anything."

GOTCHA. You see, it can't be projection when I said it myself. I specifically denied any attempt to control anyone. You, however, just proved you're a manipulative sociopath. Congratulations.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Gotcha? Lol. Ok, Sarah Palin. The description of projector still stands.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

You can't control yourself so you try to control others by being able to describe them.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

I stand by my words. After reading your diatribes in which you spend thousands of words telling me what I am and what socialists are, you try to spin it around on me when I point it out? It just puts emphasis on the point I'm making. You're not in control here, and you don't like that.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

You're not in control here, and you don't like that.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

I do enjoy the laughs, for which I thank you.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

I do enjoy the laughs, for which I thank you.

But I reflected the truth back at you and you didn't like it...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

I didn't like it? Wow...

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Review the tapes of the discussion.

Your initial responses to me were: "Nah..." and "I don't think I will" were neutral. That's all well. As reptiliandude rightly pointed out, your reaction at that point could have simply been because the book was too long. But as I continued to dig into socialism, you made the quip: "Let go, m8. You're not in control, here."

Since when was this discussion about control? At that point it becomes clear I hit a nerve.

The thing about "control" is this. I do not control you. You do not control me. But your statement about "control" has a subtle barb buried in it. Identity preservation. The real difference in our discussion is where the locus of control lies. My locus of control is inner self and always has been. You mistook my recognition of socialism as a threat to my independence as a control threat. Socialism isn't a threat to my ideological framework. Socialism is an external threat to my physical security. My words are "don't tread on me" not "do what I tell you." I frankly don't care if other people disagree with me. But I do relish being a gadfly at times. And I do take umbrage to people abridging my personal freedoms.

So, circling back, if you were in that position... Someone who was confident in their socialism and thought I was wrong could think "this guy is irrelevant" and move on or simply say "socialism doesn't work like you think" and gotten into random details. Or, if you somehow aren't a socialist, you could have just as easily said "I am not a socialist" and moved on. But you didn't.

Why does this have to be about "control?" As I said, I never once asserted control. As reptiliandude always says "Your currency is your own."

Your responses indicate that you have an external locus of control rooted in some kind of idealization of socialism and you have a need to silence criticisms. How does the fact that I'm a "free market" advocate actually damage your right to think positive things about socialism? People badmouth things all the time. Everyone has different opinions and some of them won't agree with you. Part of being a mature individual means realizing that honest disagreement exists.

Just because I think you are a potential long term threat doesn't mean I care that you have silly ideas. Just don't try using those silly ideas to justify taking my house and property, okay...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

If you weren't obsessed with control you wouldn't have kept on doing... whatever it is you're attempting. Your responses are only triggered by my words, they have very little to do with their content. You've assessed me as a long term threat because I'm a prop in your narrative. In reality, I'm just a strange voice on the internet that you have no way of knowing any real facts about.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

You keep going back to this "control" thing... I told you what I am:

"gadfly" - an annoying person, especially one who provokes others into action by criticism.

-

You've assessed me as a long term threat

Give it a rest with the "personal is political" meme. I'm opposed to your philosophy not your person. You eat, drink, breathe, and shit just like everyone else. I don't care about that.

I do, however, reject Karl Marx's baloney thesis and its myriad of insane derivatives and cousins.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Projection again! You have so much energy to give freely, you'd make a great communist.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Ah but I can understand psychological manipulation, my friend... and it won't work on me.

I can see how it's being done now. Your course has been really quite instructive about how socialist ideologues are being programmed in universities. First, they reject your philosophy because it's against their upbringing. Then you can manipulate a false claim that someone is obsessed with control which they viscerally reject because they don't want to see themselves as authoritarians. Next, you claim their rebuttal is a projection which they also understand as a form of psychological manipulation. This generates a double bind form of cognitive dissonance. Eventually you'll offer the faint praise of "you'd make a great communist" which operates like a "carrot and stick."

This is all very informative. Very informative.

Now that I've probably depressed you about your recruitment prospects, let's set down some facts:

  1. Statements about oneself are not projection.
  2. Statements about observations are not projection.
  3. Statements made from the basis of common knowledge are not projection.
  4. Falsely claiming someone is projecting is gaslighting.

The identity threat concept doesn't bear reiteration.

By the way, if you wonder why I care... get this... a gaggle of your corporate buddies decided that stealing my country's highest office was a good idea. I don't think that's very nice...

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Please tell me what my goal is, who my buddies are, daddy.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

There you go again, conflating the personal with the political. I don't expect that your ideologues would tell you what they do. In fact it's probably in their interests that they don't because you "don't need to know."

[–] [deleted] 1 points

[deleted]

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Whose interests?

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Well, I don't know what was wrong with your first statement:

Please tell me what my goal is, who my buddies are, daddy.

But now that you've narrowed the criteria to:

Whose interests?

I guess I can infer you do know that your ideology is involved in the deed I'm describing. Heh heh. Yep. Can't deny that one.

For now, I'm assuming its being led by the Middle Kingdom... but I'm not the one investigating this thing.

But don't worry, it's still plausibly deniable. After all, you can say you just didn't want to sound like a jerk. Heh.

[–] kodiakus 1 points

Do bear in mind that this massive BULK of material sourced from real, actual books largely from before the internet, is on one topic. One topic.

​

There are so many other lies that require hours of dedication to actually learn about.

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 5 points

Seriously? You’re recommending a weighty tome that if you were to forego sleep, and only paused to eat and shit would still take the average person about 30 hours to read?

[–] emperorbma 2 points

I would have even accepted skimming the Cliff's Notes. The point is that socialism is demonstrably bad... really bad. His reaction said everything. He's clearly enamored with it.

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 10 points

Crony Capitalism is much, much worse.
The problem with socialism is where socialism is applied and enforced by those whose level of ignorance is the same as the market manipulating sociopaths they replaced.

Socialism works well when leadership must meet qualifications to level up via established tiers in State-Owned Enterprises, Civil Service, and Community Organizations.

Then, you put a bit in capitalism’s mouth like you would in a horse’s mouth and you watch over those whose greed and desire for power would cause them to stray from the course that is beneficial for all.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Don't get me wrong. I actually agree that Crony Capitalism is horrible. And I would have even agreed with our guest about that too if he'd actually listened to my point but he apparently decided to become reactionary (yes, I can use their words...) instead.

Indeed, Monsanto is evil. Indeed, Bill Gates is evil. And Google and Facebook are censorious tyrants, although I'd note that their tyranny is largely in favor of his preferred socialism. Part of the problem here is that the major "stockholders" of big business are generally Chinese socialists but I'll get to that later. Large corporations can indeed be warped to the point they can hardly be even recognized as a free market system. And for that, I've actually taken to calling that corporate socialism.

The horrors of socialism are far less extricable from the normal course of operation as a system of force than those of capitalism where force cannot be used without the recourse of citizens. These problems of a free market are eminently correctable without resorting to total destruction of the system. (Even now, I think there's a distinct chance to right the ship...) People can rise up against the system before it gets to the point of unsalvageability. There's the power of verbal dissent, boycotting, elections. There's also legitimate recourse to the governing laws if they can be harnessed by diligent citizens. All before it ever has to get to the "ammo box." As you now see various States are having taking the role of stepping up against the Crony Capitalists in lieu of the Federal Government. And that really illustrates the genius of separation of powers. I suspect that if the US can't right itself, England is just plain screwed at this point though. 1984 and Ingsoc appear to be a prophecy of what happens if it can't fix itself.

In capitalism there's the possibility of having actual competition. Unfortunately, there is an unregulated situation with "corporate mergers" where corporations are allowed to grow into the kinds of metastatic cancers that can kill the capitalist system itself. But we also should have been watching the kind of people who were playing the game. Socialists are biased and will inherently seek to usurp capitalism in its intended form where people are striving to benefit themselves and their communities by turning it inward on itself. Frankly, we should have been suspicious when China sang the song of "socialism with free market characteristics" that they were playing the long game of such usurpation. The signs were there in Hollywood for decades. Don't think I didn't notice Joss Whedon making Chinese his second lingua franca in his works. Evidently few seem to have moved about it overtly until 2016 and by then the bureaucrats were selling "orange man" out in 2020.

Under socialism, the sheep live in disarmed "gun free zones" where the Bolsheviks can fleece them and starve them without any recourse on their part except to devour the dead or to just plain die . That is exactly what happened during the Holodomor. See how workers' unions can end up like the Teamsters' Union that murdered Jimmy Hoffa and hid his body to this day. Socialism is scary and for good reasons. They're not some godsent solution to the problem either. Whether or not that could sometimes be harnessed for good, it's not a system I think is ever safe from evolving into the godless Soviets and corrupt mafias. In a free market, we have the option of going our own way and building our own systems. In socialism, the state jackboots forbid that.

Regardless of the flaws of both systems, the universal problem is that greed and envy create cycles which disrupt the flow of civil service and dissolve into petty corruption. The metastasis of that corruption has infected "international government" aka globalism to the point it has now become an instrument of the Molochean mafiosis.

[–] ACuriousHumanBeing 0 points

I never thought in a million years I would hear see you write: "Socialism works well when..."

Ce le vive....

[–] lelekfalo 3 points

*C'est la vie 😉

[–] ACuriousHumanBeing 1 points

Well, obfuscation is always excellent. Give someone so much of something, create an entire universe, and they'll be forced to agree from mere paralyzation. Its kinda like a lot of scientific theory. Make a story, and make someone accept its logic, and they'll have to agree. Reflection to reality tenuously pending...

[–] pottrpupptpals 3 points

While I am not particularly well versed on the social intricacies of British politics, I can say at the very least that effective policies are typically never based in contrarianism or skepticism alone.

[–] emperorbma 1 points

I’ve been sort of watching since Brexit so I got a little by osmosis. The problem seems to be the aversion to ideology has made it so popular moves have to work around the establishment conservatives. They had to oust Theresa May to move Brexit and Boris is how they did that. But now it’s looking like Boris Johnson is outliving his usefulness.

Labour is basically their equivalent of the Democrats down to having analogs of AOC like Jeremy Corbyn. They really would not benefit from the Labour angle. I mean look at Joey Bribes here in the States for a preview of their agenda.

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 6 points

[–] Firstladytree 2 points

Reddit is where us single ppl come to engage in the drama and arguments our real lives are lacking ... bc we’re single

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 4 points

Surely, you’re not intimating that a woman can create an argument the same way that a quark can be pulled apart to make two…

[–] Firstladytree 2 points

What happens when you pull a quark apart? Two equal quarks?

[–] explorer1357 2 points

DOUBLE TROUBLE

[–] wraith_tm8 7 points

Probably much easier to pull quarks than to get them to laugh at a joke.

[–] explorer1357 5 points

Scientists measuring the attractive force of two quarks are stymied because when one tries to separate a quark from a proton or neutron ends up with the original particle plus a meson (quark-antiquark pair). The meson is created from the extra energy used to pry the quark out of the proton or neutron.

Idk if that’s relevant but it sounds better than all the other articles saying ‘you can’t split a quark!!’

[–] Firstladytree 3 points

I didn’t even consider looking it up. Like i instinctively knew no good info about it exists other than right here ha

[–] PrinceWizdom 2 points

The technology to pull two quarks apart maybe as rare as a woman with a sense of humor 😏

[–] Firstladytree 3 points

Or as rare as a dude on the highway trying to race you not being sexually frustrated

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 2 points

It’s no small coincidence that men with intentionally noisy vehicles are, well…

[–] [deleted] 1 points

[deleted]

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 2 points

You really shouldn’t have bit into that one.

[–] [deleted] 1 points

[deleted]

[–] ACuriousHumanBeing 0 points

Blame her not, for she had no knowledge of evil...

[–] Firstladytree 1 points

How exactly do you pull a quark apart? And why exactly would you even want to? What would lead a person to do such a thing🧐

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 2 points

To power a “waterwheel,” of course. ❤️

[–] Firstladytree 2 points

A waterwheel is a type of device that takes advantage of flowing or falling water to generate power by using a set of paddles mounted around a wheel. The falling force of the water pushes the paddles, rotating a wheel

Is this how you are able to build cities under the ocean that use power?

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 4 points

Oops…

Better for the hint that you stay on subject.

[–] ACuriousHumanBeing 1 points

Why limit it to water...many think of space as an ocean of sorts.

[–] Firstladytree 5 points

Now I am a curious human being

[–] pottrpupptpals 1 points

I just watched this and it tickled my soul, thank you. Also noticing a lot of bee imagery from businesses lately...

[–] garbotalk 3 points

Well, at least the U.S. isn't the only nation with political DRAMA!

[–] VDogMeat 0 points

Wait, who is the reptile? Boris? I can agree with that.

[–] [deleted] 1 points

[deleted]

[–] explorer1357 2 points

Trevor Moore - Time for Guillotines

Lyrics:

🎶🎶🎵🎶🎵🎵🎶

Well it's no secret that country's in some trouble here.

The left is mad, the right's enraged, and the middle's disappeared.

The fat cats expect us to bail out them and all their friends,

And when they've spent our money they stick out their hands again.

It's times like this that each of us need to reach across the aisle.

Instead of burning incense we can try to share a smile.

Put aside our differences and remember what made us great.

All the people arm in arm and in one voice we'll say:

It's time for guillotines, it's time to raise the boards.

It's time to sharpen blades, we just can't take this any more.

It's nothing personal, we gave your way a try.

We're sorry, but you at the top all have to die.

I'm sorry Mister President, we need to have your head.

And senators and congressmen--we need all of you dead.

And all the CEOs of all the banks,

And TV pundits too, let's show our thanks.

It really pains us, we'll have to kill your wives and children too.

It's purely business, we just cannot have them avengin' you.

We'll start in the Hamptons, and Beverely Hills, and to Georgetown we go.

And we'll burn Connecticut to the ground so that nothing ever grows .

It's time for guillotines, it's time to raise the boards.

It's time to sharpen blades, we just can't take this any more.

Those peaceful protests just were not cutting it,

Martin Luther King and Ghandi both can go suck a d***.

We can come together, we can do this if we try.

Find our common enemy and unite both our sides.

A l** and a NASCAR fan help to hold a lobbyist down,

While a priest and an abortion doctor stomp him into the ground

We'll take the Secretary of the Treasury, and the Chairmen of the Fed.

And let all three hundred million citizens gangrape them 'till their dead.

And when every man, woman and child has finished running train,

We'll rest for a couple hundred years before we'll have to do it again.

It's time for guillotines, it's time to raise the boards.

It's time to sharpen blades, we just can't take this any more.

Those peaceful protests just were not cutting it,

Martin Luther King and Ghandi both can go suck a d***.

Martin Luther King and Ghandi both can go suck a d***.

🎶🎶🎵🎶🎵🎵🎶

[–] GANDHI-BOT 0 points

The future depends on what we do in the present. Just so you know, the correct spelling is Gandhi.

[–] wraith_tm8 2 points

If Nathuram didn't end up doing it China would have. And such a little scarlet thread would have never been tied from that red beast's flame.

[–] wraith_tm8 4 points

Brits should just go all-in with Count Binface.

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 2 points

I agree, sometimes you have to put the whole pig in the stew squealing and all to get people to finally ask themselves what kind of horrible shit they’ve been eating.

[–] Nova-111 1 points

I live in the UK. I've watched them pull this shite day to day with complete disregard for the people's well being, and yet I still see people defending them. The Tories have cost countless lives throughout this pandemic and now it somehow seems to be getting worse again.

Things seem to be changing in the water though, the water is boiling and people are becoming tired of the governments reaction, or inaction should I say, to the strange period of events. Hopefully the inaction will become the catalyst for a change to be made.

[–] velezaraptor 2 points

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 3 points

That’s what happens to a society when you weed out your finest rebels and ship them to far-off colonies, putting them into squattocracies like Victoria, Australia.

Comically, the nation even has a State Church founded by a king who couldn’t comprehend God’s good sense in a female heir to the throne.

And I liked Henry.

The man was a musician and an athlete and had all the fairytale qualities of a divine king.

But he just couldn’t accept the notion that the heir to his lineage wasn’t going to be a boy and swapped out multiple wives in fits of narcissistic injustice.

So he divorced the Roman Catholic Church from his country because the pope was like, “Let me get this straight… you want to divorce your wife because—wtf?”

When even the chief padre of the Roman Catholic Church way back then is compelled to scratch his head and ask, “What the hell are these people thinking…” you’ve got to give even a king’s decree a second mulling over.
There’s a great book called, “Stick a Flag in it” by Arran Lomas.
If you want to understand England, it’s a great read.

[–] velezaraptor 1 points

Oh!, I know how that books ends... They all get the Black Death and die!

So was Phillip a dragon, so to speak? He seemed so innocent in his debauchery, so natural...lol

[–] emperorbma 1 points

Hmmmmmmmmmm: https://youtu.be/Jix7Yx9UL18

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 3 points

Perfectly understandable.

The working classes need jobs and benefits.

The cul-de-sac dwelling left gets woke points scolding them for not seeing the artistic value in using Cheez Whiz as an anal lubricant.

[–] emperorbma 5 points

God seems to have quite a few surprises for the woke left coming up. The globalists overplayed their hand. People are waking up to their scams and returning to either populist nationalism or ethnic nationalism in response to the failures of pure scientific rationalism.

[–] reptiliandude Reptilian 6 points

Well, the rationalism was far from scientific.

It was a scam designed to steal as much wealth out of global regions as possible to enrich a handful of sociopaths.

[–] emperorbma 6 points

Agreed. They choked on evolution because it said things they didn’t like… like two sexes exist, and evolution doesn’t stop at the neck, and a Bell Curve exists in aptitude’s as well as physical endurance, and also there is good data for paranormal phenomena like NDEs.

The collapse of the old progressive rationalism will hopefully give way to a much smarter and more God friendly science.